Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-13 12:33:57
hjnatdat

Hi Carol (et al) Here we go:


Firstly, just like the coronation itself this didn't happen. We know because most of these were knighted at some point afterwards for example John Speke was knighted at the Coronation of EOY.

Of the 47 proposed knights, Richard created 15 at his coronation in July, HT went on to create another 5 down the line. Richard also chose to add some more, but they are a wide cross-section, not his Yorkshire affinity, for example Sir John Zouche.

Looking at the names, the majority are from the High Sheriff network but there are a number there with Woodville connections - Hampden, Stourton (knighted by HT). So my guess is that this is why Richard chose to discard them. I would have to look at each discarded one in turn but my guess is that is the reason. I wonder if some were suggestions of Rivers or EW?

Finally, of these 47 only 9 fought at Bosworth - 5 for Richard, 4 for HT so the decision to discard 27 of them doesn't seem to have made that much difference. It could be apathy, of course, as with most of the 15 who were knighted, or they could have been too old or too young, or dead by then. Or it could just be that some were to obscure to have been recorded as participants.

Hope this helps H


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-13 20:42:52
justcarol67
Hilary wrote:


Firstly, just like the coronation itself this [the knighting ceremony] didn't happen. We know because most of these were knighted at some point afterwards for example John Speke was knighted at the Coronation of EOY.

Of the 47 proposed knights, Richard created 15 at his coronation in July, HT went on to create another 5 down the line. Richard also chose to add some more, but they are a wide cross-section, not his Yorkshire affinity, for example Sir John Zouche. Looking at the names, the majority are from the High Sheriff network but there are a number there with Woodville connections - Hampden, Stourton (knighted by HT). So my guess is that this is why Richard chose to discard them. I would have to look at each discarded one in turn but my guess is that is the reason. I wonder if some were suggestions of Rivers or EW? Finally, of these 47 only 9 fought at Bosworth - 5 for Richard, 4 for HT so the decision to discard 27 of them doesn't seem to have made that much difference. It could be apathy, of course, as with most of the 15 who were knighted, or they could have been too old or too young, or dead by then. Or it could just be that some were to obscure to have been recorded as participants.

Hope this helps"


Carol responds:


Thank you very much, Hilary. So the fifteen that Richard created at his coronation were all from the original list (intended for EV's coronation)? Were the five that fought for Richard knighted at his coronation? What about the four that fought for HT?


I'm quite surprised that only nine fought at Bosworth. I would have thought that some of the knights who were (in their view) cheated of knighthood would have resented Richard for that reason and rebelled. You're probably right that they had been chosen early on (before Richard's arrival in London) by the Woodvilles and their supporters. If they had been loyal Yorkists known to Richard, surely he would have included them in his own small group. (I can't help feeling a bit sorry for the disappointed would-be knights, but I'm glad the decision to exclude them didn't come back to haunt Richard.)


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-14 11:07:20
Hilary Jones
Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back. H

On Thursday, 13 December 2018, 20:42:55 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


Firstly, just like the coronation itself this [the knighting ceremony] didn't happen. We know because most of these were knighted at some point afterwards for example John Speke was knighted at the Coronation of EOY.

Of the 47 proposed knights, Richard created 15 at his coronation in July, HT went on to create another 5 down the line. Richard also chose to add some more, but they are a wide cross-section, not his Yorkshire affinity, for example Sir John Zouche. Looking at the names, the majority are from the High Sheriff network but there are a number there with Woodville connections - Hampden, Stourton (knighted by HT). So my guess is that this is why Richard chose to discard them. I would have to look at each discarded one in turn but my guess is that is the reason. I wonder if some were suggestions of Rivers or EW? Finally, of these 47 only 9 fought at Bosworth - 5 for Richard, 4 for HT so the decision to discard 27 of them doesn't seem to have made that much difference. It could be apathy, of course, as with most of the 15 who were knighted, or they could have been too old or too young, or dead by then. Or it could just be that some were to obscure to have been recorded as participants.

Hope this helps"


Carol responds:


Thank you very much, Hilary. So the fifteen that Richard created at his coronation were all from the original list (intended for EV's coronation)? Were the five that fought for Richard knighted at his coronation? What about the four that fought for HT?


I'm quite surprised that only nine fought at Bosworth. I would have thought that some of the knights who were (in their view) cheated of knighthood would have resented Richard for that reason and rebelled. You're probably right that they had been chosen early on (before Richard's arrival in London) by the Woodvilles and their supporters. If they had been loyal Yorkists known to Richard, surely he would have included them in his own small group. (I can't help feeling a bit sorry for the disappointed would-be knights, but I'm glad the decision to exclude them didn't come back to haunt Richard.)


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-14 19:39:17
justcarol67
Hilary wrote:

Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back. H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-15 10:42:51
Hilary Jones
Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back. H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-15 12:07:01
Hilary Jones
Sorry Carol someone was sitting in a car outside waiting for me.
Richard's others were also:
Edmund de la PoleJohn Grey of KentWilliam Zouche Thomas BoleynWilliam EnderbyJohn Browne (who belongs to the first list)
I have your guys on my Bosworth list but not on the coronation list. I'll come back to you. H


On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 10:43:20 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back. H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-15 12:28:43
Hilary Jones
Hi Carol, I'll give you feedback as I find it.
William Jenney was already a knight when he was called to Edward's last Parliament in January 1483. H
On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 12:07:08 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

Sorry Carol someone was sitting in a car outside waiting for me.
Richard's others were also:
Edmund de la PoleJohn Grey of KentWilliam Zouche Thomas BoleynWilliam EnderbyJohn Browne (who belongs to the first list)
I have your guys on my Bosworth list but not on the coronation list. I'll come back to you. H


On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 10:43:20 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back. H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-15 12:45:08
Hilary Jones
Sir William Hopton was knighted sometime between January 1483 and January 1484 (we have two deeds on with him as Esquire (1483) and another 'knight' (1484). However, he died on 07 Feb 1484 - there is a writ - so he never got to Bosworth. H
On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 12:07:08 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

Sorry Carol someone was sitting in a car outside waiting for me.
Richard's others were also:
Edmund de la PoleJohn Grey of KentWilliam Zouche Thomas BoleynWilliam EnderbyJohn Browne (who belongs to the first list)
I have your guys on my Bosworth list but not on the coronation list. I'll come back to you. H


On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 10:43:20 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back. H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-15 13:13:22
Hilary Jones
The note on Robert Percy being knighted at the Coronation seems to come from a Ricardian article. I actually wonder whether he was knighted earlier in Scotland (Richard and Percy (Northumberland) made 70 knights between them. Have yet to find the list. H
On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 10:43:20 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back. H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-15 20:35:25
justcarol67
Hilary listed a number of knights and added:

"I have your guys on my Bosworth list but not on the coronation list. I'll come back to you."

Thanks very much. "My guys" are from "The Knights of England. A complete record from the earliest time to the present day of the knights of all the orders of chivalry in England, Scotland, and Ireland, and of knights bachelors, incorporating a complete list of knights bachelors dubbed in Ireland" (https://archive.org/details/knightsofengland02shawuoft/page/n9)--not very complete after all, apparently.

I also have two Bosworth lists, one of them from this forum, and the list of HT's attainders after Bosworth from Polydore Vergil but no good list (except yours!) of the knights from Richard's coronation. I don't own Sutton and Hammond's "Coronation of Richard III: The Extant Documents" (too expensive!) or I would consult that. Is that your source?

Thanks again,

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-16 11:51:01
Hilary Jones
Hi Carol this is mine
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mUO5D_A0REoC&hl=en_GB&pg=GBS.PP438

It needs independently verifying but it does quote some sources at the bottom. The knights listed under Edward V are those from the Foedora. I'm still trying to look up a few of the others. Certainly the 70 knights made by Richard and Northumberland in Scotland don't seem to be listed anywhere.
I have verified nearly everyone on my Bosworth list now and identified a few potential others who had deaths within days or weeks of Bosworth. Sometimes it took up to two years for the writs to be issued and one has of course to be wary that such deaths were not caused by the sweating sickness. Unsurprisingly a lot of the latter occurred amongst the London merchant class.
What we were saying whilst you were away from the Forum (welcome back by the way) is that there seemed to be a degree of apathy (on both sides) in turning up to fight. This could be because the general opinion was that Richard would easily defeat HT and indeed he should have had it not been for 'that charge', or because warfare as the ultimate career was beginning to go out of fashion when you could become successful in a more comfortable way? It's difficult to tell but none of it is I think a reflection on Richard's popularity, as some writers would have us believe. Analysis of the October rebels shows us that there were far more folk with a longstanding grudge against Edward than against any measures Richard had brought in.
BTW I don't have the Sutton/Hammond book either. As you say, it's prohibitively expensive. I wonder if there are any extracts online? H
On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 20:40:34 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary listed a number of knights and added:

"I have your guys on my Bosworth list but not on the coronation list. I'll come back to you."

Thanks very much. "My guys" are from "The Knights of England. A complete record from the earliest time to the present day of the knights of all the orders of chivalry in England, Scotland, and Ireland, and of knights bachelors, incorporating a complete list of knights bachelors dubbed in Ireland" (https://archive.org/details/knightsofengland02shawuoft/page/n9)--not very complete after all, apparently.

I also have two Bosworth lists, one of them from this forum, and the list of HT's attainders after Bosworth from Polydore Vergil but no good list (except yours!) of the knights from Richard's coronation. I don't own Sutton and Hammond's "Coronation of Richard III: The Extant Documents" (too expensive!) or I would consult that. Is that your source?

Thanks again,

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-16 22:24:05
justcarol67
Hilary wrote:


"The note on Robert Percy being knighted at the Coronation seems to come from a Ricardian article. I actually wonder whether he was knighted earlier in Scotland (Richard and Percy (Northumberland) made 70 knights between them. Have yet to find the list."

Carol responds:

My source for Robert Percy being knighted at the coronation is the "Knights of England" book I cited earlier, which appears to be unreliable on that score. But it may be better for the knights Richard made as Duke of Gloucester. Here's his list of knights banneret made in Scotland on July 24, 1482 (retyped because it can't be copied and pasted):

Edward Wydevill (Woodville) [correction by the editor]
Walter Herbert
Herbert Greystoke
John Elrington
Henry Percy
William Gascoigne
Edmond Hastings
James Tyrell
James Danby
Hugh Hastings
Rauf [sic] Asheton
William Redman
Richard Radcliff
Thomas Malyverer
Bryan Stapleton
John Savage
William Evers
Piers Middelton [sic]
Christopher Warde
Stephen Hamerton
Thomas Tempest
John Everingham
Robert Harrington
Thomas Broughton
John Aske
Thomas Grey of Warke
Rauf Woderington
Roger Thorneton
Thomas Molyneux
Alexander Houghton
Piers A. Legh
Edward Stanley
John Grey of Wilton
Richard Hodleston [sic]

Then he lists (regular) knights made the same day by the Duke of Gloucester:

William Nevill [sic] of Thorneton Bridge
Richard Hawte [sic]
John Woderington (Widrington) [editorial correction]
Willilam Ingleby (Engelby) [editorial correction]
Thomas Gowre [sic]
Randolf Pygott
John Darrell
William Houghton
William Parker of London
Roger Cotton
Thomas Bowles
Thomas (John) Bridges (Bergyll) [editorial correction, evidently changing Thomas Bridges to John Bergyll]
Alexander Baynham
Sandy Jarden (Jurden), a Scot [editorial correction. "A Scot" is apparently in the original]

He adds knights made the same day by the Duke of Albany (Kendall's "Clarence in kilt"), the Earl of Northumberland, and Lord Stanley, notably William Stanley (knighted by his brother); another longish list of knights and bannerets made by Richard, Duke of Gloucester, on August 22, 1482, including Francis Lovell; and two knights dubbed February 17, 1484, after Parliament was ended: William Catesby and the speaker, John Wood. (I thought Catesby was speaker?).

Anyway, you can find "The Knights of England: A Complete Record" (which should perhaps be retitled!) on Google Books or at https://archive.org/details/knightsofengland02shawuoft/page/n27

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-16 23:04:03
justcarol67
Hilary wrote:

"Hi Carol this is mine


https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mUO5D_A0REoC&hl=en_GB&pg=GBS.PP438 https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mUO5D_A0REoC&hl=en_GB&pg=GBS.PP438



It needs independently verifying but it does quote some sources at the bottom. The knights listed under Edward V are those from the Foedora. I'm still trying to look up a few of the others. Certainly the 70 knights made by Richard and Northumberland in Scotland don't seem to be listed anywhere."

Carol responds:

Thanks. I'll need to check the actual site later as my eyes can't read small print.

Did you see the list I posted of knights Richard made in Scotland? I don't know how accurate it is, but the author used a number of heraldic manuscripts including Harleian Mss. 5177 and 6063 and Cotton Ms. Claudius C III. Given his apparently thorough research, I'm surprised that the coronation list is so inaccurate.

Hilary:



"I have verified nearly everyone on my Bosworth list now and identified a few potential others who had deaths within days or weeks of Bosworth. Sometimes it took up to two years for the writs to be issued and one has of course to be wary that such deaths were not caused by the sweating sickness. Unsurprisingly a lot of the latter occurred amongst the London merchant class."


Carol:

Is your Bosworth list posted somewhere? I have Paul's and another that I found on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/Richard-III-and-his-time-135541839971118/?tn-str=k*F

I agree about the apathy by the time of Bosworth. I haven't done a thorough search for the coronation book, but what I did find is either reviews or companies offering the book for sale. Google Books offers only a snippet view. I guess the best solution is the old-fashioned one: a university library with a photocopier.

Sorry about not using a linkable URL, but I hate the way the links mess up the font and sometimes include the whole website in the post. I don't know how much space we have left on this forum, but it does have limits, so I like to conserve it when I can.

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-17 10:35:14
Hilary Jones
Thank you so very much Carol. These do indeed make sense as most are Richard's Yorkshiremen and of his affinity. I found a note on the Dymoke family which says that Robert was knighted by Edward in 1481. As with everything of this era one has to check and re-check and recheck...... Thanks again. H
On Sunday, 16 December 2018, 22:24:11 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


"The note on Robert Percy being knighted at the Coronation seems to come from a Ricardian article. I actually wonder whether he was knighted earlier in Scotland (Richard and Percy (Northumberland) made 70 knights between them. Have yet to find the list."

Carol responds:

My source for Robert Percy being knighted at the coronation is the "Knights of England" book I cited earlier, which appears to be unreliable on that score. But it may be better for the knights Richard made as Duke of Gloucester. Here's his list of knights banneret made in Scotland on July 24, 1482 (retyped because it can't be copied and pasted):

Edward Wydevill (Woodville) [correction by the editor]
Walter Herbert
Herbert Greystoke
John Elrington
Henry Percy
William Gascoigne
Edmond Hastings
James Tyrell
James Danby
Hugh Hastings
Rauf [sic] Asheton
William Redman
Richard Radcliff
Thomas Malyverer
Bryan Stapleton
John Savage
William Evers
Piers Middelton [sic]
Christopher Warde
Stephen Hamerton
Thomas Tempest
John Everingham
Robert Harrington
Thomas Broughton
John Aske
Thomas Grey of Warke
Rauf Woderington
Roger Thorneton
Thomas Molyneux
Alexander Houghton
Piers A. Legh
Edward Stanley
John Grey of Wilton
Richard Hodleston [sic]

Then he lists (regular) knights made the same day by the Duke of Gloucester:

William Nevill [sic] of Thorneton Bridge
Richard Hawte [sic]
John Woderington (Widrington) [editorial correction]
Willilam Ingleby (Engelby) [editorial correction]
Thomas Gowre [sic]
Randolf Pygott
John Darrell
William Houghton
William Parker of London
Roger Cotton
Thomas Bowles
Thomas (John) Bridges (Bergyll) [editorial correction, evidently changing Thomas Bridges to John Bergyll]
Alexander Baynham
Sandy Jarden (Jurden), a Scot [editorial correction. "A Scot" is apparently in the original]

He adds knights made the same day by the Duke of Albany (Kendall's "Clarence in kilt"), the Earl of Northumberland, and Lord Stanley, notably William Stanley (knighted by his brother); another longish list of knights and bannerets made by Richard, Duke of Gloucester, on August 22, 1482, including Francis Lovell; and two knights dubbed February 17, 1484, after Parliament was ended: William Catesby and the speaker, John Wood. (I thought Catesby was speaker?).

Anyway, you can find "The Knights of England: A Complete Record" (which should perhaps be retitled!) on Google Books or at https://archive.org/details/knightsofengland02shawuoft/page/n27

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-17 10:39:50
Hilary Jones
Yes the print is awful isn't it?
Is one able to put attachments on the forum now does anyone know? If you tell me how I'll certainly post it.
It's also an analysis by age so we can get the average age and of course affinity. H

On Sunday, 16 December 2018, 23:04:10 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:

"Hi Carol this is mine


https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mUO5D_A0REoC&hl=en_GB&pg=GBS.PP438 https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mUO5D_A0REoC&hl=en_GB&pg=GBS.PP438

It needs independently verifying but it does quote some sources at the bottom. The knights listed under Edward V are those from the Foedora. I'm still trying to look up a few of the others. Certainly the 70 knights made by Richard and Northumberland in Scotland don't seem to be listed anywhere."

Carol responds:

Thanks. I'll need to check the actual site later as my eyes can't read small print.

Did you see the list I posted of knights Richard made in Scotland? I don't know how accurate it is, but the author used a number of heraldic manuscripts including Harleian Mss. 5177 and 6063 and Cotton Ms. Claudius C III. Given his apparently thorough research, I'm surprised that the coronation list is so inaccurate.

Hilary:

"I have verified nearly everyone on my Bosworth list now and identified a few potential others who had deaths within days or weeks of Bosworth. Sometimes it took up to two years for the writs to be issued and one has of course to be wary that such deaths were not caused by the sweating sickness. Unsurprisingly a lot of the latter occurred amongst the London merchant class."


Carol:

Is your Bosworth list posted somewhere? I have Paul's and another that I found on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/Richard-III-and-his-time-135541839971118/?tn-str=k*F

I agree about the apathy by the time of Bosworth. I haven't done a thorough search for the coronation book, but what I did find is either reviews or companies offering the book for sale. Google Books offers only a snippet view. I guess the best solution is the old-fashioned one: a university library with a photocopier.

Sorry about not using a linkable URL, but I hate the way the links mess up the font and sometimes include the whole website in the post. I don't know how much space we have left on this forum, but it does have limits, so I like to conserve it when I can.

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-17 22:45:00
justcarol67



Hilary wrote:

Thank you so very much Carol. These do indeed make sense as most are Richard's Yorkshiremen and of his affinity. I found a note on the Dymoke family which says that Robert was knighted by Edward in 1481. As with everything of this era one has to check and re-check and recheck...... Thanks again. H
Carol responds:

You're welcome. Now if someone would just put all the Harleian and Cotton manuscripts online. . . .

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-17 23:16:33
justcarol67
Hilary wrote:

"Yes the print is awful isn't it?Is one able to put attachments on the forum now does anyone know? If you tell me how I'll certainly post it. It's also an analysis by age so we can get the average age and of course affinity."

Carol responds:

I don't think we can add attachments (only links), but you can upload it to the Files from the website. The Files link is near the top of the page below that Chinese dragon-looking thing (that I wish we could get rid of as it has no relationship to Richard III).

Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-21 10:00:44
Hilary Jones
Thanks Carol. Mine is in the form of an excel spreadsheet at the moment so I'll have to convert it to a format that people who haven't got Office can use. I'll try and get it done in the next day or two, Christmas permitting. H
On Monday, 17 December 2018, 23:36:40 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


"Yes the print is awful isn't it?Is one able to put attachments on the forum now does anyone know? If you tell me how I'll certainly post it. It's also an analysis by age so we can get the average age and of course affinity."

Carol responds:

I don't think we can add attachments (only links), but you can upload it to the Files from the website. The Files link is near the top of the page below that Chinese dragon-looking thing (that I wish we could get rid of as it has no relationship to Richard III).

Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-21 18:58:22
justcarol67

Hilary wrote:

"Thanks Carol. Mine is in the form of an excel spreadsheet at the moment so I'll have to convert it to a format that people who haven't got Office can use. I'll try and get it done in the next day or two, Christmas permitting. H"
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. Will your Christmas be white? Mine (in Arizona) looks like it will be warmish with a chance for rain.

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-22 10:52:25
Hilary Jones
No Carol ours looks to be dull but warm for the time of year. We rarely get a white Christmas, thank goodness! It will be a bit colder than yours though, I bet.
To you and everyone on here have a lovely Christmas and a great new year of discussion and research. Hilary
On Friday, 21 December 2018, 18:58:52 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:


Hilary wrote:

"Thanks Carol. Mine is in the form of an excel spreadsheet at the moment so I'll have to convert it to a format that people who haven't got Office can use. I'll try and get it done in the next day or two, Christmas permitting. H"
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. Will your Christmas be white? Mine (in Arizona) looks like it will be warmish with a chance for rain.

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-22 13:02:02
Nicholas Brown
And best wishes to all for a lovely Christmas and Happy New Year from me too. Let's hope the forum will stay as lively as it has been recently we will have as lots of fascinating discussions like we did this year.
Nico

On Saturday, 22 December 2018, 10:52:28 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

No Carol ours looks to be dull but warm for the time of year. We rarely get a white Christmas, thank goodness! It will be a bit colder than yours though, I bet.
To you and everyone on here have a lovely Christmas and a great new year of discussion and research. Hilary
On Friday, 21 December 2018, 18:58:52 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:


Hilary wrote:

"Thanks Carol. Mine is in the form of an excel spreadsheet at the moment so I'll have to convert it to a format that people who haven't got Office can use. I'll try and get it done in the next day or two, Christmas permitting. H"
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. Will your Christmas be white? Mine (in Arizona) looks like it will be warmish with a chance for rain.

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-22 16:41:43
Nance Crawford
Thanks for the wonderful, informative year, everyone! Looking forward to more in a prosperous and less stressful 2019 for the world around us. God Bless us, every one! N ----- Original Message ----- From: Nicholas Brown nico11238@... [] <> Reply-To: <> To: <> Sent: 12/22/2018 5:01:56 AM Subject: Re: Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

And best wishes to all for a lovely Christmas and Happy New Year from me too. Let's hope the forum will stay as lively as it has been recently we will have as lots of fascinating discussions like we did this year.
Nico

On Saturday, 22 December 2018, 10:52:28 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

No Carol ours looks to be dull but warm for the time of year. We rarely get a white Christmas, thank goodness! It will be a bit colder than yours though, I bet.
To you and everyone on here have a lovely Christmas and a great new year of discussion and research. Hilary
On Friday, 21 December 2018, 18:58:52 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:


Hilary wrote:

"Thanks Carol. Mine is in the form of an excel spreadsheet at the moment so I'll have to convert it to a format that people who haven't got Office can use. I'll try and get it done in the next day or two, Christmas permitting. H"
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. Will your Christmas be white? Mine (in Arizona) looks like it will be warmish with a chance for rain.

Carol

Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-22 17:11:54
A J Hibbard
Regarding lists of knights made by the Duke of Gloucester in Scotland.

This was discussed in one of the articles published in the Court Journal (of the Scottish Branch of the Richard III Society) in the Spring 2014 edition. There appear to have been 2 batches of knights & bannerets created, and some confusion over dates. Some seem to have been made after the preliminary excursion in 1481, and some after the campaign in 1482.

Neither the 1481 list nor the 1482 list includes Robert Percy. Metcalfe's list of Bannerets made in Scotland on 24 July 1482 by the Duke of Gloucester does include Sir Henry Percy.

Metcalfe shows Sr Robert Persay as a "knighte made by Kinge Richard the Third on the Sonday before his Coronation, 5 July 1483, after he had created certeyn Lords, as the Lord Howard to be duke of Norff, his son Thomas to be Erle of Surrey, the Viscount Berkley to be Erle of Nottingham, and the Lord Lisle to be Viscount Lysle."

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 7:13 AM Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:
 

The note on Robert Percy being knighted at the Coronation seems to come from a Ricardian article. I actually wonder whether he was knighted earlier in Scotland (Richard and Percy (Northumberland) made 70 knights between them. Have yet to find the list. H
On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 10:43:20 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

 

Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers  H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

 

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back.  H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:
 

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

 

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

 

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

 

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

 

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-22 18:52:58
Hilary Jones
Hi AJ, John Howard was certainly Duke of Norfolk by 30 Jun 1483 when he was authorised to execute the office of Steward of England at Richard's Coronation (CPR). JAH has his dukedom probably dating from 28 June 1483 (Kendall) He was certainly made Earl Marshall of England on 28 June and given John Mowbray's arms as a duke (CPR p358) so that's almost certainly right. He gets a lot more Norfolk lands later in July
Percy was not a knight in February 1483 when he was on a Commission with Richard and Northumberland to look into 'discords' at Knaresborough (CPR). But no mention just before the Coronation.
Who is Metcalfe? H
On Saturday, 22 December 2018, 17:12:02 GMT, A J Hibbard ajhibbard@... [] <> wrote:

Regarding lists of knights made by the Duke of Gloucester in Scotland.

This was discussed in one of the articles published in the Court Journal (of the Scottish Branch of the Richard III Society) in the Spring 2014 edition. There appear to have been 2 batches of knights & bannerets created, and some confusion over dates. Some seem to have been made after the preliminary excursion in 1481, and some after the campaign in 1482.

Neither the 1481 list nor the 1482 list includes Robert Percy. Metcalfe's list of Bannerets made in Scotland on 24 July 1482 by the Duke of Gloucester does include Sir Henry Percy.

Metcalfe shows Sr Robert Persay as a "knighte made by Kinge Richard the Third on the Sonday before his Coronation, 5 July 1483, after he had created certeyn Lords, as the Lord Howard to be duke of Norff, his son Thomas to be Erle of Surrey, the Viscount Berkley to be Erle of Nottingham, and the Lord Lisle to be Viscount Lysle."

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 7:13 AM Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

The note on Robert Percy being knighted at the Coronation seems to come from a Ricardian article. I actually wonder whether he was knighted earlier in Scotland (Richard and Percy (Northumberland) made 70 knights between them. Have yet to find the list. H
On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 10:43:20 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back. H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-22 21:21:57
A J Hibbard
This particular Metcalfe was Walter Charles Metcalfe. He was author of A book of Knights Banneret, Knights of the Bath, and Knights Bachelor made between the fourth year of King Henry VI. and the restoration of King Charles ii. etc, published in 1885.
Although Metcalfe seems to have given us when Robert Percy was knighted, it might also be worth noting that the lists of knights made when Richard's son Edward was installed as Prince of Wales is incomplete, coming down to us only as "many other northern gentlemen."
As part of the ceremony of investiture, King Richard also created knights that day. Although Shaw stumbles in referring to the repetition of the Coronation, he mentions (1483, Sept. 8.(Knights made at York by Richard III. on the procession through the city and the repetition of the Coronation [sic].( Gefferey de Sasiola, ambassador from Spain, in testimony whereof he gave him letters patent dated at York the same day.( Richard [sic], of Gloucester, the King's natural son( And many other Northern Gentlemen. (This is the same list as provided in Drake's Eboracum of 1736; it is unfortunate that the many other Northern Gentlemen are, it seems, fated to remain anonymous.

A J


On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 12:53 PM Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:
 

Hi AJ, John Howard was certainly Duke of Norfolk by 30 Jun 1483 when he was authorised to execute the office of Steward of England at Richard's Coronation (CPR). JAH has his dukedom probably dating from 28 June 1483 (Kendall)  He was certainly made Earl Marshall of England on 28 June and given John Mowbray's arms as a duke (CPR p358) so that's almost certainly right. He gets a lot more Norfolk lands later in July
Percy was not a knight in February 1483 when he was on a Commission with Richard and Northumberland to look into 'discords' at Knaresborough (CPR). But no mention just before the Coronation.
Who is Metcalfe?  H
On Saturday, 22 December 2018, 17:12:02 GMT, A J Hibbard ajhibbard@... [] <> wrote:

 

Regarding lists of knights made by the Duke of Gloucester in Scotland.

This was discussed in one of the articles published in the Court Journal (of the Scottish Branch of the Richard III Society) in the Spring 2014 edition. There appear to have been 2 batches of knights & bannerets created, and some confusion over dates. Some seem to have been made after the preliminary excursion in 1481, and some after the campaign in 1482.

Neither the 1481 list nor the 1482 list includes Robert Percy. Metcalfe's list of Bannerets made in Scotland on 24 July 1482 by the Duke of Gloucester does include Sir Henry Percy.

Metcalfe shows Sr Robert Persay as a "knighte made by Kinge Richard the Third on the Sonday before his Coronation, 5 July 1483, after he had created certeyn Lords, as the Lord Howard to be duke of Norff, his son Thomas to be Erle of Surrey, the Viscount Berkley to be Erle of Nottingham, and the Lord Lisle to be Viscount Lysle."

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 7:13 AM Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:
 

The note on Robert Percy being knighted at the Coronation seems to come from a Ricardian article. I actually wonder whether he was knighted earlier in Scotland (Richard and Percy (Northumberland) made 70 knights between them. Have yet to find the list. H
On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 10:43:20 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

 

Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers  H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

 

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back.  H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:
 

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

 

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

 

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

 

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

 

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Re: Proposed Knights at Coronation of Edward V

2018-12-22 21:22:27
A J Hibbard
PS - The book is available on Google Books.
A J

On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 3:21 PM A J Hibbard <ajhibbard@...> wrote:
This particular Metcalfe was Walter Charles Metcalfe. He was author of A book of Knights Banneret, Knights of the Bath, and Knights Bachelor made between the fourth year of King Henry VI. and the restoration of King Charles ii. etc, published in 1885.
Although Metcalfe seems to have given us when Robert Percy was knighted, it might also be worth noting that the lists of knights made when Richard's son Edward was installed as Prince of Wales is incomplete, coming down to us only as "many other northern gentlemen."
As part of the ceremony of investiture, King Richard also created knights that day. Although Shaw stumbles in referring to the repetition of the Coronation, he mentions (1483, Sept. 8.(Knights made at York by Richard III. on the procession through the city and the repetition of the Coronation [sic].( Gefferey de Sasiola, ambassador from Spain, in testimony whereof he gave him letters patent dated at York the same day.( Richard [sic], of Gloucester, the King's natural son( And many other Northern Gentlemen. (This is the same list as provided in Drake's Eboracum of 1736; it is unfortunate that the many other Northern Gentlemen are, it seems, fated to remain anonymous.

A J


On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 12:53 PM Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:
 

Hi AJ, John Howard was certainly Duke of Norfolk by 30 Jun 1483 when he was authorised to execute the office of Steward of England at Richard's Coronation (CPR). JAH has his dukedom probably dating from 28 June 1483 (Kendall)  He was certainly made Earl Marshall of England on 28 June and given John Mowbray's arms as a duke (CPR p358) so that's almost certainly right. He gets a lot more Norfolk lands later in July
Percy was not a knight in February 1483 when he was on a Commission with Richard and Northumberland to look into 'discords' at Knaresborough (CPR). But no mention just before the Coronation.
Who is Metcalfe?  H
On Saturday, 22 December 2018, 17:12:02 GMT, A J Hibbard ajhibbard@... [] <> wrote:

 

Regarding lists of knights made by the Duke of Gloucester in Scotland.

This was discussed in one of the articles published in the Court Journal (of the Scottish Branch of the Richard III Society) in the Spring 2014 edition. There appear to have been 2 batches of knights & bannerets created, and some confusion over dates. Some seem to have been made after the preliminary excursion in 1481, and some after the campaign in 1482.

Neither the 1481 list nor the 1482 list includes Robert Percy. Metcalfe's list of Bannerets made in Scotland on 24 July 1482 by the Duke of Gloucester does include Sir Henry Percy.

Metcalfe shows Sr Robert Persay as a "knighte made by Kinge Richard the Third on the Sonday before his Coronation, 5 July 1483, after he had created certeyn Lords, as the Lord Howard to be duke of Norff, his son Thomas to be Erle of Surrey, the Viscount Berkley to be Erle of Nottingham, and the Lord Lisle to be Viscount Lysle."

On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 7:13 AM Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:
 

The note on Robert Percy being knighted at the Coronation seems to come from a Ricardian article. I actually wonder whether he was knighted earlier in Scotland (Richard and Percy (Northumberland) made 70 knights between them. Have yet to find the list. H
On Saturday, 15 December 2018, 10:43:20 GMT, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

 

Hi Carol, this is what I have:
From the first list:
Thomas ArundelChristopher WilloughbyEdmund BedingfieldThomas LewknorWilliam BerkeleyThomas Boteler of BewseyThomas Lord OrmondeEdmund Cornewall of BurfordGeorge Neville so of Baron BergavennyGervase CliftonNicholas de LisleWilliam Saye
Richard's addtions:
Williamm GascoigneThomas HungerfordGuy WolstonRichard PomeroyJohn SheldonHugh LuttrellThomas PulteneyHugh ConwayNicholas Linley

This was done in rush - I'll double check later.. cheers  H







On Friday, 14 December 2018, 19:41:25 GMT, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

 

Hilary wrote:


Hi Carol, I want to do a little bit more work on this and then I'll come back.  H
Carol responds:

Great. Thank you. I only have names of five men knighted for Richard's coronation:
 

Robert Dummoke, the King's champion at the Coronation. [Not at Bosworth.]

 

William Hopton. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]

 

Robert Percy. [Killed at Bosworth fighting for Richard.]

 

William Jenney, justice [of the King's Bench]. {Not at Bosworth.]

 

Gervase Clifton, sheriff of Notts and Derby. [Fought for Richard at Bosworth; attainted by HT.]


Does that match what you have?


Thanks again,


Carol


Christmas

2018-12-24 22:42:13
justcarol67



Hilary wrote:

"No Carol ours looks to be dull but warm for the time of year. We rarely get a white Christmas, thank goodness! It will be a bit colder than yours though, I bet. To you and everyone on here have a lovely Christmas and a great new year of discussion and research.

Carol responds:

Merry Christmas, Hilary and everyone!