Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

John Morton

2018-06-10 18:22:52
ricard1an

There is an article in the Ricardian Bulletin about John Morton's Will, I have not actually read it yet, however, I noticed his family tree while I was skimming through. His mother was an Elizabeth Turbeville of Bere Regis and his nephew was one Thomas Morton brother of Robert Morton the Master of the Rolls and thomas was married to Elizabeth Twiniho. There is a question mark against Elizabeth Turbeville but I wondered if she could be connected to the Turbevilles of Glamorgan, one of the families of the Glamorgan coast who did rather well under Tudor. As for Elizabeth Twiniho any connection to Ankarrette I wonder? There may be nothing to get concerned about but I just thought you might be interested Hilary.


Mary

Re: John Morton

2018-06-10 22:47:46
mariewalsh2003
Hi Mary,

I haven't had time to look at the article on Morton's will yet., but I can comment on the items you mention in the family tree in general. The Turberville marriage comes from a slightly later source and is not proven though it is possible. The Turberville family in question was that of Bere Regis, Dorset, close to the Morton family home of Milborne St Andrews.

That Morton's nephew Thomas married a Twynyho is also correct, but her name was not Elizabeth as later claimed and as accepted by Dr Knox. She was Dorothy, the younger and only surviving daughter of Ankarette's brother-in law, John Twynyho of Cirencester. They married in the summer of 1486 when Dorothy was a propertied orphan, so it doesn't tell us whether there were any Twynyho-Morton links before Bosworth.

Marie

Re: John Morton

2018-06-11 10:38:28
ricard1an
Thank you for this Marie. Those two names just jumped out as I was skimming through the article. I haven't read it properly yet.
Mary

Re: John Morton

2018-06-11 10:53:15
Hilary Jones
Hi Mary and Marie, yes I have Thomas Morton's first wife as Dorothy the daughter of John Twynyho of Keyford, possible friend of Clarence and Attorney General to Edward Prince of Wales and as you say Marie he was brother in law to Ankarette. Dorothy was born in 1467 (18 at the time of his IPM) so the marriage, as you say would been before that IPM in October 1485 as she is named as Dorothy Morton there. So it might not have been a longstanding friendship but they are geographically close and worked for King Edward.
As you also say, that branch of the Turbevilles are descended from Sir John Turbeville of Bere Regis , Surveyor to King John down to Sir Richard of Winterbourne Dorset MP, Sir Robert MP of Bere Regis died 1424
TURBERVILLE, Sir Robert (1354-1420), of Bere Regis, Dorset. | History of Parliament Online

TURBERVILLE, Sir Robert (1354-1420), of Bere Regis, Dorset. | History...


I have numerous Turbevilles of Glamorgan going back to Payn, but I can't as yet connect the two, though I'm pretty sure there is a connection.
It's another area that needs a lot of work. And you know how complex Welsh genealogy is! H

On Sunday, 10 June 2018, 22:47:50 BST, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Mary,

I haven't had time to look at the article on Morton's will yet., but I can comment on the items you mention in the family tree in general. The Turberville marriage comes from a slightly later source and is not proven though it is possible. The Turberville family in question was that of Bere Regis, Dorset, close to the Morton family home of Milborne St Andrews.

That Morton's nephew Thomas married a Twynyho is also correct, but her name was not Elizabeth as later claimed and as accepted by Dr Knox. She was Dorothy, the younger and only surviving daughter of Ankarette's brother-in law, John Twynyho of Cirencester. They married in the summer of 1486 when Dorothy was a propertied orphan, so it doesn't tell us whether there were any Twynyho-Morton links before Bosworth.

Marie

Re: John Morton

2018-06-11 13:14:18
Hilary Jones
Hi Mary I have managed to connect them! John the Surveyor of Bere Regis was descended from Sir Brian Turbeville, son of Sir Payn Turbeville (d 1207)and Maud ferch Morgan Gam of Brigend & Rhonda. He was a younger brother of Sir Gilbert of the main Coity branch and also of Sir Emerod of Crug Howell the father-in-law of Mardudd ap Caradog. I had it all a long!
So yes the Dorset Mortons do have a Welsh link and with the Craddock Newtons :) H
On Monday, 11 June 2018, 10:38:33 BST, maryfriend@... [] <> wrote:

Thank you for this Marie. Those two names just jumped out as I was skimming through the article. I haven't read it properly yet.


Mary

Re: John Morton

2018-06-11 14:50:46
ricard1an
That's great Hilary. I found something on a genealogy site which said that Sir Richard Turbeville could have been Sir Gilbert of Coity but I didn't take a any notice because people do mix up their ancestors with similar names though how you could mistake Richard for Gilbert I don't know.
I will see if I can find any notes on the Turbevilles.
Mary

Re: John Morton

2018-06-12 09:48:22
Hilary Jones
Thanks Mary! Sir Gilbert's ancestor seems to have married a Talbot. H
On Monday, 11 June 2018, 14:50:52 BST, maryfriend@... [] <> wrote:

That's great Hilary. I found something on a genealogy site which said that Sir Richard Turbeville could have been Sir Gilbert of Coity but I didn't take a any notice because people do mix up their ancestors with similar names though how you could mistake Richard for Gilbert I don't know.


I will see if I can find any notes on the Turbevilles.
Mary

Re: John Morton

2018-06-13 15:26:40
mariewalsh2003

Hilary wrote:

John the Surveyor of Bere Regis was descended from Sir Brian Turbeville, son of Sir Payn Turbeville (d 1207) and Maud ferch Morgan Gam of Brigend & Rhonda. He was a younger brother of Sir Gilbert of the main Coity branch and also of Sir Emerod of Crug Howell the father-in-law of Mardudd ap Caradog. I had it all a long!


Marie replies:

I did a lot of work on the Morton line at one time. It's all very vague in my head now, but I still have my notes. The Coity link, unfortunately, is almost certainly based on a false genealogy, albeit 'traditional' and set in concrete. The History of Parliament article on Sir Robert Turberville of Bere Regis (1354-1420) notes that Cecilia Beauchamp, who is usually claimed as the mother of Cardinal Morton's alleged mother Elizabeth Turberville (for whom we have no contemporary evidence either), was actually the wife of Gilbert Turberville of Coity and not of Richard Turberville of Bere Regis. There's absolutely no reason to suppose she was married to both - this is just the usual confusion.

My own suspicion is that any marriage between the Mortons and the Turbervilles would have happened rather later, when John Morton's own successful career had raised the family profile. If that is so, then the Coity connection would actually be based on two false links.

Some day I would like to get back to the Mortons. The real history of the family has been drowned in so much later self-aggrandizing fiction which hasn't yet been properly challenged though there's a very sound post on the subject on Rootsweb.


,


Re: John Morton

2018-06-13 18:49:37
Hilary Jones
Hi Marie, Morton's mother was the daughter I'd Margaret Carew whose father was Keeper of the Sel to EIII (makes sense). Her mother was Lucy Willoughby daughter I'd Sir Richard Willoughby. Now I do believe this because there is a dispute between the Willoughbys and the Morton's including our John over the Dorset lands. I'm not with my notes but I'll send you the link later
As for Bryan and Payn etc they are much earlier - 12 century and as I said to Mary so much Welsh genealogy is based on myth as is ours if you don't check every IPM. But there does seem to be an unholy alliance between the Cholkes, the Newton's, the Twynyhos, the Mortons and Bishop Stillington. Unless that is his partner was one of them (he would only have been early 20s) and was later used by Edward as a plant' I mean he was. Will send you the stuff tomorrow. H
Forgive the awful predictive text. Sir Nicholas Carew. Oh and in the alliance are the Talbots


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On Wednesday, June 13, 2018, 3:26 pm, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hilary wrote:

John the Surveyor of Bere Regis was descended from Sir Brian Turbeville, son of Sir Payn Turbeville (d 1207) and Maud ferch Morgan Gam of Brigend & Rhonda. He was a younger brother of Sir Gilbert of the main Coity branch and also of Sir Emerod of Crug Howell the father-in-law of Mardudd ap Caradog. I had it all a long!


Marie replies:

I did a lot of work on the Morton line at one time. It's all very vague in my head now, but I still have my notes. The Coity link, unfortunately, is almost certainly based on a false genealogy, albeit 'traditional' and set in concrete. The History of Parliament article on Sir Robert Turberville of Bere Regis (1354-1420) notes that Cecilia Beauchamp, who is usually claimed as the mother of Cardinal Morton's alleged mother Elizabeth Turberville (for whom we have no contemporary evidence either), was actually the wife of Gilbert Turberville of Coity and not of Richard Turberville of Bere Regis. There's absolutely no reason to suppose she was married to both - this is just the usual confusion.

My own suspicion is that any marriage between the Mortons and the Turbervilles would have happened rather later, when John Morton's own successful career had raised the family profile. If that is so, then the Coity connection would actually be based on two false links.

Some day I would like to get back to the Mortons. The real history of the family has been drowned in so much later self-aggrandizing fiction which hasn't yet been properly challenged though there's a very sound post on the subject on Rootsweb.


,


Re: John Morton

2018-06-13 23:37:10
ricard1an
According to the Dictionary of Welsh Biography in the National Library of Wales Payn Turbeville III succeeded his father Richard Turbeville who died in 1283. Payn III married Wenllian daughter of Sir Richard Talbot of Richards Castle (Shropshire though may have been Worcestershire in those days) Payn died in 1318 and was succeeded by his son Gilbert Turbeville IV who was married to Cicely daughter of Lord Beauchamp of Hache.
So it looks as if Gilbert IV was decended from the Talbots on his mother's side.The Turbeville male line died out as some of the heirs died childless and it was eventually inherited by a Turbeville daughter, I think her name was Sarah. I believe she married a Stradling of St Donats and one of her descendants married Sir Roger Berkerolles. I am doing this from memory as I have not got my notes at present. When googling for information I came across an article by someone writing about Worcestershire and they maintained that the Turbevilles of Bere where originally descended from the Turbevilles of Coity, from one of Payn I's sons. Apparently before they were given Coity they were given property in Crickhowell (Crug Hywel) and this is where the Bere Turbevilles originated from. Obviously I have got no idea if this is all correct.
Mary

Re: John Morton

2018-06-14 11:09:30
mariewalsh2003
Thanks, Hilary. I'd be interested in the evidence but I warn you I won't be taking anything at face value because prior to John Morton's career taking off they were just ordinary farmers in Milborne St. Andrews (the 16th C genealogy linking them with the Mortons of Yorks seems to be a fiction to justify Jm's appropriation of their arms). There were certainly links with Turbervilles from 1470s but I've found nothing in that line prior to jm's worldly success, and I've trawled a fair number of original records. Of course the Turberville mother could be right but Morton is generally clear in his will about his relationships to his legatees yet doesn't indicate a relationship to the Turberville of Bere to whom he made a bequest. I think , in any case, there's a very high chance judging by lifespans that his father married twice and so the younger brother who was left the Milborne land and is the ancestor of the later Mortons of Milborne St A did not have the same mother. But all that is to be verified.
As I say, I'll get back to researching them some day but I'm just warning you that I'm a real pain - I'm not accepting any part of the Morton genealogy until I've verified it from strictly contemporary sources.

Confusion with quite separate Morton families is a real problem, of course. It's one of those surnames derived from a common English place name which almost certainly arose spontaneously in several different places at once. In the case of the Dorset Mortons there is a nearby village from which they most probably derived their name.

The Mores are very similar, btw - much of the Rastell history of the family and Thomas's early life does not check out and the whole subject is badly in need of proper research.

Marie

Re: John Morton

2018-06-14 12:14:46
Hilary Jones
I do agree but I will let you know what I have.
In the meantime on to the mythology of the Turbevilles. I've attached a link for you and Mary (and anyone else brave enough to dabble)
http://fmg.ac/phocadownload/userupload/foundations1/issue2/083Turbevil.pdf

I would suggest a cold room, a bright light and a large brandy :) :)
Joking aside, I do think people generally at that time wanted to believe they had this great pedigree and that could just be one of the reasons why some didn't like Richard's establishment of a more rigorous College of Arms. And of course HT based his whole succession around myth. So it did encourage those around him. H
On Thursday, 14 June 2018, 11:09:33 BST, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks, Hilary. I'd be interested in the evidence but I warn you I won't be taking anything at face value because prior to John Morton's career taking off they were just ordinary farmers in Milborne St. Andrews (the 16th C genealogy linking them with the Mortons of Yorks seems to be a fiction to justify Jm's appropriation of their arms). There were certainly links with Turbervilles from 1470s but I've found nothing in that line prior to jm's worldly success, and I've trawled a fair number of original records. Of course the Turberville mother could be right but Morton is generally clear in his will about his relationships to his legatees yet doesn't indicate a relationship to the Turberville of Bere to whom he made a bequest. I think , in any case, there's a very high chance judging by lifespans that his father married twice and so the younger brother who was left the Milborne land and is the ancestor of the later Mortons of Milborne St A did not have the same mother. But all that is to be verified.
As I say, I'll get back to researching them some day but I'm just warning you that I'm a real pain - I'm not accepting any part of the Morton genealogy until I've verified it from strictly contemporary sources.

Confusion with quite separate Morton families is a real problem, of course. It's one of those surnames derived from a common English place name which almost certainly arose spontaneously in several different places at once. In the case of the Dorset Mortons there is a nearby village from which they most probably derived their name.

The Mores are very similar, btw - much of the Rastell history of the family and Thomas's early life does not check out and the whole subject is badly in need of proper research.

Marie

Re: John Morton

2018-06-15 12:29:58
Hilary Jones
Hi Marie, I've now done quite a bit on Morton's mother, Elizabeth Turbeville and most of it is backable by IPMs and deeds.
Firstly, Cecily Beauchamp of Hatch Beauchamp quoted as her mother in Morton's biography is a complete red herring. She was born in at least 1320, possibly earlier, as her age is given in the IPM of her brother Sir John. She was married firstly to Sir Roger Seymour of Newport (then Hatch) and secondly Sir Richard Turbeville of Coity Brigend (died 1384). We have IPMs for her and her Seymour child and grandchild.
'Our' Sir Richard died in Dec 1362 in Winterbourne Dorset (IPM) and his wife Eleanor (Norreys) was still live. So Elizabeth is very unlikely to be his child unless she had children at 50. She's almost certainly the daughter of his son, Sir Robert and his wife Margaret Carew. They too are well-documented. Robert's son, William, was married to Edith Newburgh, whose father also has an IPM and a will. His other daughter was married to Sir John Fitjzames and his son to a Carent. There are several documents in which these people are grouped together viz:
'John FitzJames the younger, John Neuburgh, John Bonham and Robert Morton, to Richard Turbervyle esquire, brother and heir of John Turbervyle, his heirs and assigns. Demise and quitclaim of the hundred of Byre and the manors etc. of Kyngesbyre, Combe, Hymbury and Stumystre Marshall co. Dorset with exceptions as above (No. 140, p. 41) to be held by the said Richard and the heirs of his body in capital demesne as of fee etc. and should the said Richard die without heirs, with remainder successively to Hugh and Robert Turbevyle his brothers: and then to John Turbervyle his half brother, and to John whole brother to him; and failing heirs male to any of these, with remainder to John Neuburgh the elder, uncle to John Turbervyle on the part of Edith Turbervyle mother of the two Johns, to be held as above stated. Witnesses: John Morton, Nicholas Latymer etc. (as in No. 140). Dated Kyngesbyre, 1 May, 16 Edward IV.'

Secondly, Margaret Carew's mother was Lucy Willoughby, the eventual heir of Sir Richard Willoughby. That too is well-documented in IPMs. This would explain the following document:
'1478.John Morton, bishop of Ely, to Robert Morton, keeper of the rolls, Thomas Morton clerk, Richard, Robert and Thomas Morton gentlemen, their heirs and assigns. Confirmation by charter of the manor of Mylborne which he recovered by writ de rectro against Sir John Colshull, Elizabeth his wife, Sir Robert Wilughby, Thomas Strangways esquire and Eleanor his wife: and appointment of Hugh Turbervile and John Morton gentlemen as his attorneys etc. to convey seisin of the same to them. Dated 4 February, 18 Edward IV.Letter of attorney by John Colshull and Elizabeth his wife, appointing Robert Morton to enter the manor of Milborne Deverell, which Henry Pynge restored to the said Elizabeth, Sir Robert Wilughby and Eleanor wife of Thomas Strangways, being kinswomen and heirs to Humphrey Stafford: which said lands they held by demise of John Arundell and Katherine his wife, late wife of William Stafford. Dated 20 September, 17 Edward IV.Memorandum of acknowledgment of the foregoing writings, 14 February this year.'
You may have seen some of this but I hope it helps. The Mortons are much harder to trace - I'll let you have that later..H




On Thursday, 14 June 2018, 11:09:33 BST, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Thanks, Hilary. I'd be interested in the evidence but I warn you I won't be taking anything at face value because prior to John Morton's career taking off they were just ordinary farmers in Milborne St. Andrews (the 16th C genealogy linking them with the Mortons of Yorks seems to be a fiction to justify Jm's appropriation of their arms). There were certainly links with Turbervilles from 1470s but I've found nothing in that line prior to jm's worldly success, and I've trawled a fair number of original records. Of course the Turberville mother could be right but Morton is generally clear in his will about his relationships to his legatees yet doesn't indicate a relationship to the Turberville of Bere to whom he made a bequest. I think , in any case, there's a very high chance judging by lifespans that his father married twice and so the younger brother who was left the Milborne land and is the ancestor of the later Mortons of Milborne St A did not have the same mother. But all that is to be verified.
As I say, I'll get back to researching them some day but I'm just warning you that I'm a real pain - I'm not accepting any part of the Morton genealogy until I've verified it from strictly contemporary sources.

Confusion with quite separate Morton families is a real problem, of course. It's one of those surnames derived from a common English place name which almost certainly arose spontaneously in several different places at once. In the case of the Dorset Mortons there is a nearby village from which they most probably derived their name.

The Mores are very similar, btw - much of the Rastell history of the family and Thomas's early life does not check out and the whole subject is badly in need of proper research.

Marie

Re: John Morton

2018-06-18 20:46:22
mariewalsh2003
Hi Hilary, Sorry for the delay but I was away over the weekend.
Hi Marie, I've now done quite a bit on Morton's mother, Elizabeth Turbeville and most of it is backable by IPMs and deeds.
Thanks very much indeed, but just to stop at this point to say I'm not yet assuming Elizabeth Turberville was Morton's mother because the proof hasn't yet been forthcoming. That's not to say it is untrue, only that at present the right thing, I believe, is to keep a totally open mind.
Firstly, Cecily Beauchamp of Hatch Beauchamp quoted as her mother in Morton's biography is a complete red herring. She was born in at least 1320, possibly earlier, as her age is given in the IPM of her brother Sir John. She was married firstly to Sir Roger Seymour of Newport (then Hatch) and secondly Sir Richard Turbeville of Coity Brigend (died 1384). We have IPMs for her and her Seymour child and grandchild.
Indeed, just as pointed out in the History of Parliament website. Even if Elizabeth T. turned out to be Morton's mother, we still have no Beauchamp link or any recent link to the Turbervilles of Coity.
'Our' Sir Richard died in Dec 1362 in Winterbourne Dorset (IPM) and his wife Eleanor (Norreys) was still live. So Elizabeth is very unlikely to be his child unless she had children at 50. She's almost certainly the daughter of his son, Sir Robert and his wife Margaret Carew.
I'm sorry to sound mean, but what you're actually saying is that there is no Elizabeth Turberville documented. See my problem?
They too are well-documented. Robert's son, William, was married to Edith Newburgh, whose father also has an IPM and a will. His other daughter was married to Sir John Fitjzames and his son to a Carent. There are several documents in which these people are grouped together viz:
'John FitzJames the younger, John Neuburgh, John Bonham and Robert Morton, to Richard Turbervyle esquire, brother and heir of John Turbervyle, his heirs and assigns. Demise and quitclaim of the hundred of Byre and the manors etc. of Kyngesbyre, Combe, Hymbury and Stumystre Marshall co. Dorset with exceptions as above (No. 140, p. 41) to be held by the said Richard and the heirs of his body in capital demesne as of fee etc. and should the said Richard die without heirs, with remainder successively to Hugh and Robert Turbevyle his brothers: and then to John Turbervyle his half brother, and to John whole brother to him; and failing heirs male to any of these, with remainder to John Neuburgh the elder, uncle to John Turbervyle on the part of Edith Turbervyle mother of the two Johns, to be held as above stated. Witnesses: John Morton, Nicholas Latymer etc. (as in No. 140). Dated Kyngesbyre, 1 May, 16 Edward IV.'

Secondly, Margaret Carew's mother was Lucy Willoughby, the eventual heir of Sir Richard Willoughby. That too is well-documented in IPMs. This would explain the following document:
'1478.John Morton, bishop of Ely, to Robert Morton, keeper of the rolls, Thomas Morton clerk, Richard, Robert and Thomas Morton gentlemen, their heirs and assigns. Confirmation by charter of the manor of Mylborne which he recovered by writ de rectro against Sir John Colshull, Elizabeth his wife, Sir Robert Wilughby, Thomas Strangways esquire and Eleanor his wife: and appointment of Hugh Turbervile and John Morton gentlemen as his attorneys etc. to convey seisin of the same to them. Dated 4 February, 18 Edward IV.
Letter of attorney by John Colshull and Elizabeth his wife, appointing Robert Morton to enter the manor of Milborne Deverell, which Henry Pynge restored to the said Elizabeth, Sir Robert Wilughby and Eleanor wife of Thomas Strangways, being kinswomen and heirs to Humphrey Stafford: which said lands they held by demise of John Arundell and Katherine his wife, late wife of William Stafford. Dated 20 September, 17 Edward IV.Memorandum of acknowledgment of the foregoing writings, 14 February this year.'
You may have seen some of this but I hope it helps.
I've seen, and taken down, both these documents, and some others, because they involve Mortons. It's as I indicated in my earlier post - the documents linking the Morton and Turbervilles suddenly start appearing once John Morton has made his name and fortune. I haven't made any attempt to trace Turbervilles because I don't yet know what was going on with regard to the two families; The Cardinal says in his will that he has ancestors buried at Bere but we can't just assume they were the lords of the manor. Also, Edith, the wife of John Morton's brother Richard, is also said to have been one of the Turbervilles of Bere, but from all the discussion on the forum of marital impediments I think everybody can probably see that it is unlikely that a man's mother and wife both belonged to the same family. I've looked for dispensations and not as yet discovered any.In the 1476 document, Dr. Morton's ?brother Thomas is simply appearing as a feoffee of the Turbervilles of Bere Regis, which is not at all surprising given that the Mortons were locals and Thomas' brother was by then Master of the Rolls.The 1478 document appears to be John Morton enfeoffing Milborne to his brothers, and saying he had acquired it from the Colshulls, but how or why is not clear. One other possibility is that Dr. Morton, who retained close ties to his family unlike some priests, had purchased land in the area in order to set them up as gentlemen.What I did discover, at any rate, is that there are lots of property conveyances involving the Mortons of Milbourne in the 1470s. I found some in print, and I've got a feeling there were some more in the CP 25s (Feet of Fines). I just didn't have time to pursue it, and I'm afraid I absolutely don't at present. I am right up to the wire to get another project completed before I go away for a month.
The Mortons are much harder to trace - I'll let you have that later..
The Mortons are what I concentrated on. There were at least two family groupings in the Milbornes earlier in the century, though probably very closely related to each other. If you haven't found this, it is a great starting point:http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2014-07/1405626268
The standard genealogies give the name of Morton's father as Richard, and one or more Richard Mortons do appear as holders of pieces of land in various of the Milbournes between 1417 and 1454 - but not Milbourne St. Andrew where the Cardinal is supposed to have hailed from. I've found no references to Richard's wife.There was a John Morton in Milborne St. Andrew, active from at least 1417 and dying in 1442/3. One document names his mother as Johanne Jule or possible Inle. The evidence from the later court case is contradictory, but it seems that Johanne had inherited a moiety of 100 acres in Milborne St. Andrews from her mother Juliane (in another place Juliane is said to have been her sister, but it's likely there were two Julianes).John Morton, having inherited these 50 acres in Milborne St. A, left a son named William and a widow Agnes who was probably William's stepmother as William spent a considerable amount of effort pursuing her for her dower. Agnes remarried, her next husband being John Martyn of Gillingham.William died between 1455 and 1463 and was succeeded by his son John, who with one Robert Morton was sued (unsuccessfully) in 1463 by John and Alice Clyffe over the 50 acres in M. St. A. It is in this court case that the Jule ancestry was brought up by the Mortons in evidence.
Before abandoning this research I had not got as far as finding any document that definitively linked the Cardinal and his siblings with either the Milebourne St. Andrews Johns and William or Richard of Milborne Churchton, Michaelton, Stileham and Abbas. Both families were tenants of the Husseys.
I'll get back to the Mortons one day, but as I say, not now.


Re: John Morton

2018-06-18 21:06:14
Hilary Jones
Just a quick one. I've read the article on Morton's Will and the others inability to find Robert Turbeville. If I've got Elizabeth right he was her cousin
I really don't think the Mortons were from Dorset. I have a link
Will give you details tomorrow. But did Thomas Morton Edward III's secretary exist?:):). H


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On Monday, June 18, 2018, 8:46 pm, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Hilary, Sorry for the delay but I was away over the weekend.
Hi Marie, I've now done quite a bit on Morton's mother, Elizabeth Turbeville and most of it is backable by IPMs and deeds.
Thanks very much indeed, but just to stop at this point to say I'm not yet assuming Elizabeth Turberville was Morton's mother because the proof hasn't yet been forthcoming. That's not to say it is untrue, only that at present the right thing, I believe, is to keep a totally open mind.
Firstly, Cecily Beauchamp of Hatch Beauchamp quoted as her mother in Morton's biography is a complete red herring. She was born in at least 1320, possibly earlier, as her age is given in the IPM of her brother Sir John. She was married firstly to Sir Roger Seymour of Newport (then Hatch) and secondly Sir Richard Turbeville of Coity Brigend (died 1384). We have IPMs for her and her Seymour child and grandchild.
Indeed, just as pointed out in the History of Parliament website. Even if Elizabeth T. turned out to be Morton's mother, we still have no Beauchamp link or any recent link to the Turbervilles of Coity.
'Our' Sir Richard died in Dec 1362 in Winterbourne Dorset (IPM) and his wife Eleanor (Norreys) was still live. So Elizabeth is very unlikely to be his child unless she had children at 50. She's almost certainly the daughter of his son, Sir Robert and his wife Margaret Carew.
I'm sorry to sound mean, but what you're actually saying is that there is no Elizabeth Turberville documented. See my problem?
They too are well-documented. Robert's son, William, was married to Edith Newburgh, whose father also has an IPM and a will. His other daughter was married to Sir John Fitjzames and his son to a Carent. There are several documents in which these people are grouped together viz:
'John FitzJames the younger, John Neuburgh, John Bonham and Robert Morton, to Richard Turbervyle esquire, brother and heir of John Turbervyle, his heirs and assigns. Demise and quitclaim of the hundred of Byre and the manors etc. of Kyngesbyre, Combe, Hymbury and Stumystre Marshall co. Dorset with exceptions as above (No. 140, p. 41) to be held by the said Richard and the heirs of his body in capital demesne as of fee etc. and should the said Richard die without heirs, with remainder successively to Hugh and Robert Turbevyle his brothers: and then to John Turbervyle his half brother, and to John whole brother to him; and failing heirs male to any of these, with remainder to John Neuburgh the elder, uncle to John Turbervyle on the part of Edith Turbervyle mother of the two Johns, to be held as above stated. Witnesses: John Morton, Nicholas Latymer etc. (as in No. 140). Dated Kyngesbyre, 1 May, 16 Edward IV.'

Secondly, Margaret Carew's mother was Lucy Willoughby, the eventual heir of Sir Richard Willoughby. That too is well-documented in IPMs. This would explain the following document:
'1478.John Morton, bishop of Ely, to Robert Morton, keeper of the rolls, Thomas Morton clerk, Richard, Robert and Thomas Morton gentlemen, their heirs and assigns. Confirmation by charter of the manor of Mylborne which he recovered by writ de rectro against Sir John Colshull, Elizabeth his wife, Sir Robert Wilughby, Thomas Strangways esquire and Eleanor his wife: and appointment of Hugh Turbervile and John Morton gentlemen as his attorneys etc. to convey seisin of the same to them. Dated 4 February, 18 Edward IV.
Letter of attorney by John Colshull and Elizabeth his wife, appointing Robert Morton to enter the manor of Milborne Deverell, which Henry Pynge restored to the said Elizabeth, Sir Robert Wilughby and Eleanor wife of Thomas Strangways, being kinswomen and heirs to Humphrey Stafford: which said lands they held by demise of John Arundell and Katherine his wife, late wife of William Stafford. Dated 20 September, 17 Edward IV.Memorandum of acknowledgment of the foregoing writings, 14 February this year.'
You may have seen some of this but I hope it helps.
I've seen, and taken down, both these documents, and some others, because they involve Mortons. It's as I indicated in my earlier post - the documents linking the Morton and Turbervilles suddenly start appearing once John Morton has made his name and fortune. I haven't made any attempt to trace Turbervilles because I don't yet know what was going on with regard to the two families; The Cardinal says in his will that he has ancestors buried at Bere but we can't just assume they were the lords of the manor. Also, Edith, the wife of John Morton's brother Richard, is also said to have been one of the Turbervilles of Bere, but from all the discussion on the forum of marital impediments I think everybody can probably see that it is unlikely that a man's mother and wife both belonged to the same family. I've looked for dispensations and not as yet discovered any.In the 1476 document, Dr. Morton's ?brother Thomas is simply appearing as a feoffee of the Turbervilles of Bere Regis, which is not at all surprising given that the Mortons were locals and Thomas' brother was by then Master of the Rolls.The 1478 document appears to be John Morton enfeoffing Milborne to his brothers, and saying he had acquired it from the Colshulls, but how or why is not clear. One other possibility is that Dr. Morton, who retained close ties to his family unlike some priests, had purchased land in the area in order to set them up as gentlemen.What I did discover, at any rate, is that there are lots of property conveyances involving the Mortons of Milbourne in the 1470s. I found some in print, and I've got a feeling there were some more in the CP 25s (Feet of Fines). I just didn't have time to pursue it, and I'm afraid I absolutely don't at present. I am right up to the wire to get another project completed before I go away for a month.
The Mortons are much harder to trace - I'll let you have that later..
The Mortons are what I concentrated on. There were at least two family groupings in the Milbornes earlier in the century, though probably very closely related to each other. If you haven't found this, it is a great starting point:http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2014-07/1405626268
The standard genealogies give the name of Morton's father as Richard, and one or more Richard Mortons do appear as holders of pieces of land in various of the Milbournes between 1417 and 1454 - but not Milbourne St. Andrew where the Cardinal is supposed to have hailed from. I've found no references to Richard's wife.There was a John Morton in Milborne St. Andrew, active from at least 1417 and dying in 1442/3. One document names his mother as Johanne Jule or possible Inle. The evidence from the later court case is contradictory, but it seems that Johanne had inherited a moiety of 100 acres in Milborne St. Andrews from her mother Juliane (in another place Juliane is said to have been her sister, but it's likely there were two Julianes).John Morton, having inherited these 50 acres in Milborne St. A, left a son named William and a widow Agnes who was probably William's stepmother as William spent a considerable amount of effort pursuing her for her dower. Agnes remarried, her next husband being John Martyn of Gillingham.William died between 1455 and 1463 and was succeeded by his son John, who with one Robert Morton was sued (unsuccessfully) in 1463 by John and Alice Clyffe over the 50 acres in M. St. A. It is in this court case that the Jule ancestry was brought up by the Mortons in evidence.
Before abandoning this research I had not got as far as finding any document that definitively linked the Cardinal and his siblings with either the Milebourne St. Andrews Johns and William or Richard of Milborne Churchton, Michaelton, Stileham and Abbas. Both families were tenants of the Husseys.
I'll get back to the Mortons one day, but as I say, not now.


Re: John Morton

2018-06-19 00:02:32
mariewalsh2003

Hi Hilary,


Offer appreciated but please, not now. I have to sign off for over a month and cannot deal with the Mortons again for a long time yet.


One thing is definitive, and that is that not all the Morton families in the country have the same origin by any means, or even the same two origins. It is one of those surnames derived from what is a pretty common place name. Somewhat like Middleton (a name which I've researched recently), there are several different families with completely separate origins.


There were Mortons in Milborne, Dorset, from at least the early 15th century. I haven't tried going back any further yet but given there's a village named Moreton just 6 miles away and I see no reason to suppose they came from anywhere else.

The standard genealogies show a link, via Nottingham, to the armigerous Mortons of Bawtry, Yorkshire (12 miles from another village named Morton), which justifies the Dorset Mortons' appropriation of their arms. My guess is that this is what you have seen. Unfortunately no one has turned up any evidence to support this ancestry - or at least they hadn't when I was looking.


Bye to all for now,

Marie

Re: John Morton

2018-06-19 01:38:56
mariewalsh2003

Hi Hilary,


Jut to say I *do* think the Mortons were from Dorset - they have been shown to have been there for the whole of the 15th century and my guess is we'd find them there in the 14th if we looked. They most likely take their name from the village of Moreton 6 or 7 miles to the south of Milborne St. Andrews. The standard genealogies have them coming from the armigerous Yorkshire Mortons via Nottingham but there is no evidence to back that up; it is probably merely a justification for the use of the arms.


I appreciate the offer of the link, but please don't send me any more at the moment - as I said, I have absolutely no time to look at it. This is me now signing out until at least the last week in July. Please feel free to carry on without me, of course.


Best wishes to all,

Marie




Re: John Morton

2018-06-19 10:37:38
Hilary Jones
Bye Marie!
For anyone else interested in Morton here's what I've found so far (or in case I get run over)!
Morton's father was supposedly Richard, then William, then Charles, then Sir Robert Morton HS of Notts from Bawtry South Yorks - far too many generations.
Sir Robert died in August 1396 and left a will (Test Ebor). From that will it's clear he had no son Charles, just one son Robert, MP. Robert died in 1424 and too left a will. At one point he was master of ordinance for Henry V. He had two sons, Charles and Robert. Now we know that they were born in the late 1390s because he married a lady in waiting to Anne of Bohemia called Ofka, just after the Queen died and permission was given later by Henry IV.
In the article on Earsham, Cambridgeshire in BHOL it talks of Cardinal Morton's uncle, Robert Morton, who is buried there (1467) and also left a will. His children are Nicholas, Margaret - and Ofka! So uncle Robert must be a brother of Richard Morton and both must be sons of one of the two children of Robert MP. We know Charles, Esquire also had a son George and a daughter Joan.
The problem is again dates because Charles or Robert Morton are of the right age to be Morton's father, given he was born in the 1420s. Looking at it all on paper I'm wondering whether Richard Morton the father and Richard Morton John's brother have become confused i.e. both are supposed to have married Turbevilles and that the whole information has become scrambled. We know brother Richard is correct - he appears several times, was HS of Somerset & Dorset and left a will. He died in 1488.
Still digging.BTW Uncle Robert was in Cambs because he'd married Alice Tendring from East Anglia. H
PS I can't find any Mortons in Dorset until John appears but I'm still looking

On Tuesday, 19 June 2018, 01:45:27 BST, mariewalsh2003 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Hilary,


Jut to say I *do* think the Mortons were from Dorset - they have been shown to have been there for the whole of the 15th century and my guess is we'd find them there in the 14th if we looked. They most likely take their name from the village of Moreton 6 or 7 miles to the south of Milborne St. Andrews. The standard genealogies have them coming from the armigerous Yorkshire Mortons via Nottingham but there is no evidence to back that up; it is probably merely a justification for the use of the arms.


I appreciate the offer of the link, but please don't send me any more at the moment - as I said, I have absolutely no time to look at it. This is me now signing out until at least the last week in July. Please feel free to carry on without me, of course.


Best wishes to all,

Marie